Comments on: Using BPMN as BPM notation http://www.redstream.nl/2008/11/03/using-bpmn-as-bpm-notation/ Pragmatic Integrators Tue, 18 Oct 2011 12:18:20 +0000 hourly 1 By: Pascal Alma http://www.redstream.nl/2008/11/03/using-bpmn-as-bpm-notation/comment-page-1/#comment-303 Pascal Alma Wed, 05 Nov 2008 19:35:42 +0000 http://www.pascalalma.net/?p=198#comment-303 Hi Peter, Thx for your comments. We will look into jBPM thing. Open source shouldn't be a problem, as long as the product is good :-) Just some more reading to do... Hi Peter,

Thx for your comments. We will look into jBPM thing. Open source shouldn’t be a problem, as long as the product is good :-)
Just some more reading to do…

]]> By: Pascal Alma http://www.redstream.nl/2008/11/03/using-bpmn-as-bpm-notation/comment-page-1/#comment-703 Pascal Alma Wed, 05 Nov 2008 19:35:42 +0000 http://www.pascalalma.net/?p=198#comment-703 Hi Peter, Thx for your comments. We will look into jBPM thing. Open source shouldn't be a problem, as long as the product is good :-) Just some more reading to do... Hi Peter,

Thx for your comments. We will look into jBPM thing. Open source shouldn’t be a problem, as long as the product is good :-)
Just some more reading to do…

]]> By: Peter Reitsma http://www.redstream.nl/2008/11/03/using-bpmn-as-bpm-notation/comment-page-1/#comment-300 Peter Reitsma Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:45:10 +0000 http://www.pascalalma.net/?p=198#comment-300 Hi Pascal, How are you going to do the BPMN to BPEL transformation ? Keep in mind that there are quite some issues with the automatic conversion. The two are in different domains: BPMN is a notational standard and BPEL is (SOAP) web service orchestration. Some interesting articles appeared on this topic recently: http://www.infoq.com/articles/bpelbpm http://www.infoq.com/articles/seven-fallacies-of-bpm http://stage.vambenepe.com/archives/177 From a (os) developer's perspective I never got enthused about SOAP and BPEL, just too verbose, too complicated and too XML. My favorite BPM engine is less restrictive and much more versatile: JBoss jBPM. Read Tom's comparison between jPDL and BPEL: http://processdevelopments.blogspot.com/2007/04/bpel-compared-to-jpdl.html. It seems however still hard to 'sell' an open source solution in the BPM arena. Hi Pascal,

How are you going to do the BPMN to BPEL transformation ? Keep in mind that there are quite some issues with the automatic conversion. The two are in different domains: BPMN is a notational standard and BPEL is (SOAP) web service orchestration.
Some interesting articles appeared on this topic recently:
http://www.infoq.com/articles/bpelbpm
http://www.infoq.com/articles/seven-fallacies-of-bpm
http://stage.vambenepe.com/archives/177

From a (os) developer’s perspective I never got enthused about SOAP and BPEL, just too verbose, too complicated and too XML.
My favorite BPM engine is less restrictive and much more versatile: JBoss jBPM. Read Tom’s comparison between jPDL and BPEL: http://processdevelopments.blogspot.com/2007/04/bpel-compared-to-jpdl.html.

It seems however still hard to ‘sell’ an open source solution in the BPM arena.

]]> By: Peter Reitsma http://www.redstream.nl/2008/11/03/using-bpmn-as-bpm-notation/comment-page-1/#comment-700 Peter Reitsma Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:45:10 +0000 http://www.pascalalma.net/?p=198#comment-700 Hi Pascal, How are you going to do the BPMN to BPEL transformation ? Keep in mind that there are quite some issues with the automatic conversion. The two are in different domains: BPMN is a notational standard and BPEL is (SOAP) web service orchestration. Some interesting articles appeared on this topic recently: http://www.infoq.com/articles/bpelbpm http://www.infoq.com/articles/seven-fallacies-of-bpm http://stage.vambenepe.com/archives/177 From a (os) developer's perspective I never got enthused about SOAP and BPEL, just too verbose, too complicated and too XML. My favorite BPM engine is less restrictive and much more versatile: JBoss jBPM. Read Tom's comparison between jPDL and BPEL: http://processdevelopments.blogspot.com/2007/04/bpel-compared-to-jpdl.html. It seems however still hard to 'sell' an open source solution in the BPM arena. Hi Pascal,

How are you going to do the BPMN to BPEL transformation ? Keep in mind that there are quite some issues with the automatic conversion. The two are in different domains: BPMN is a notational standard and BPEL is (SOAP) web service orchestration.
Some interesting articles appeared on this topic recently:
http://www.infoq.com/articles/bpelbpm
http://www.infoq.com/articles/seven-fallacies-of-bpm
http://stage.vambenepe.com/archives/177

From a (os) developer’s perspective I never got enthused about SOAP and BPEL, just too verbose, too complicated and too XML.
My favorite BPM engine is less restrictive and much more versatile: JBoss jBPM. Read Tom’s comparison between jPDL and BPEL: http://processdevelopments.blogspot.com/2007/04/bpel-compared-to-jpdl.html.

It seems however still hard to ‘sell’ an open source solution in the BPM arena.

]]> By: Pascal Alma http://www.redstream.nl/2008/11/03/using-bpmn-as-bpm-notation/comment-page-1/#comment-302 Pascal Alma Tue, 04 Nov 2008 07:26:54 +0000 http://www.pascalalma.net/?p=198#comment-302 Hi David, Thx for your comments. About the fundamental decision: it is more the combination of things happening here at the client. One thing we are asked is to visualize the business processes. Another important thing we see is the lack of flexibility in their current IT systems. So we see that SOA could make their IT much more flexible and thus cooperate better with their business. And since we are already busy to express their processes in BPMN why not use this BPMN as base for the SOA solution, by transforming them to BPEL (like described here: http://www.packtpub.com/business-process-driven-SOA-using-BPMN-and-BPEL/book). About the other thing: you are right, I meant activities/tasks. And I would like them to be developed in parallel, but the customer hasn't decided yet to go for the SOA solution, so until then we focus on the BPM. And that gives us more time to read and learn about it (I found some interesting posts on your site too, thx for that). Hi David,
Thx for your comments. About the fundamental decision: it is more the combination of things happening here at the client. One thing we are asked is to visualize the business processes. Another important thing we see is the lack of flexibility in their current IT systems. So we see that SOA could make their IT much more flexible and thus cooperate better with their business. And since we are already busy to express their processes in BPMN why not use this BPMN as base for the SOA solution, by transforming them to BPEL (like described here: http://www.packtpub.com/business-process-driven-SOA-using-BPMN-and-BPEL/book).
About the other thing: you are right, I meant activities/tasks. And I would like them to be developed in parallel, but the customer hasn’t decided yet to go for the SOA solution, so until then we focus on the BPM. And that gives us more time to read and learn about it (I found some interesting posts on your site too, thx for that).

]]> By: Pascal Alma http://www.redstream.nl/2008/11/03/using-bpmn-as-bpm-notation/comment-page-1/#comment-702 Pascal Alma Tue, 04 Nov 2008 07:26:54 +0000 http://www.pascalalma.net/?p=198#comment-702 Hi David, Thx for your comments. About the fundamental decision: it is more the combination of things happening here at the client. One thing we are asked is to visualize the business processes. Another important thing we see is the lack of flexibility in their current IT systems. So we see that SOA could make their IT much more flexible and thus cooperate better with their business. And since we are already busy to express their processes in BPMN why not use this BPMN as base for the SOA solution, by transforming them to BPEL (like described here: http://www.packtpub.com/business-process-driven-SOA-using-BPMN-and-BPEL/book). About the other thing: you are right, I meant activities/tasks. And I would like them to be developed in parallel, but the customer hasn't decided yet to go for the SOA solution, so until then we focus on the BPM. And that gives us more time to read and learn about it (I found some interesting posts on your site too, thx for that). Hi David,
Thx for your comments. About the fundamental decision: it is more the combination of things happening here at the client. One thing we are asked is to visualize the business processes. Another important thing we see is the lack of flexibility in their current IT systems. So we see that SOA could make their IT much more flexible and thus cooperate better with their business. And since we are already busy to express their processes in BPMN why not use this BPMN as base for the SOA solution, by transforming them to BPEL (like described here: http://www.packtpub.com/business-process-driven-SOA-using-BPMN-and-BPEL/book).
About the other thing: you are right, I meant activities/tasks. And I would like them to be developed in parallel, but the customer hasn’t decided yet to go for the SOA solution, so until then we focus on the BPM. And that gives us more time to read and learn about it (I found some interesting posts on your site too, thx for that).

]]> By: David French http://www.redstream.nl/2008/11/03/using-bpmn-as-bpm-notation/comment-page-1/#comment-301 David French Mon, 03 Nov 2008 22:33:02 +0000 http://www.pascalalma.net/?p=198#comment-301 ...After we have modeled the relevant processes we would like to translate the BPMN diagrams to BPEL diagrams. ... I would be interested to understand why this fundamental decision was made. Do you anticipate a developer reading and modifying the process design in BPEL rather than BPMN? If so, how do you plan to deal with the divergence of the BP as designed by process designer and BP as delivered by developer? Are you committed to a BPEL execution engine? If so, do you really need to be concerned with diagramatic representation of BPEL? ...we first have to identify which processes are suitable to be implemented by web services, and then we have to build all these services. ... I think you mean 'which activities/tasks are suitable'. Really they do not need to be web services in any but the most general sense of the phrase and they do not need to be built - only have a 'contract' defined (say in WSDL). Then process development and service development can proceed in parallel. …After we have modeled the relevant processes we would like to translate the BPMN diagrams to BPEL diagrams. …
I would be interested to understand why this fundamental decision was made.
Do you anticipate a developer reading and modifying the process design in BPEL rather than BPMN? If so, how do you plan to deal with the divergence of the BP as designed by process designer and BP as delivered by developer?
Are you committed to a BPEL execution engine? If so, do you really need to be concerned with diagramatic representation of BPEL?

…we first have to identify which processes are suitable to be implemented by web services, and then we have to build all these services. …

I think you mean ‘which activities/tasks are suitable’.
Really they do not need to be web services in any but the most general sense of the phrase and they do not need to be built – only have a ‘contract’ defined (say in WSDL). Then process development and service development can proceed in parallel.

]]> By: David French http://www.redstream.nl/2008/11/03/using-bpmn-as-bpm-notation/comment-page-1/#comment-701 David French Mon, 03 Nov 2008 22:33:02 +0000 http://www.pascalalma.net/?p=198#comment-701 ...After we have modeled the relevant processes we would like to translate the BPMN diagrams to BPEL diagrams. ... I would be interested to understand why this fundamental decision was made. Do you anticipate a developer reading and modifying the process design in BPEL rather than BPMN? If so, how do you plan to deal with the divergence of the BP as designed by process designer and BP as delivered by developer? Are you committed to a BPEL execution engine? If so, do you really need to be concerned with diagramatic representation of BPEL? ...we first have to identify which processes are suitable to be implemented by web services, and then we have to build all these services. ... I think you mean 'which activities/tasks are suitable'. Really they do not need to be web services in any but the most general sense of the phrase and they do not need to be built - only have a 'contract' defined (say in WSDL). Then process development and service development can proceed in parallel. …After we have modeled the relevant processes we would like to translate the BPMN diagrams to BPEL diagrams. …
I would be interested to understand why this fundamental decision was made.
Do you anticipate a developer reading and modifying the process design in BPEL rather than BPMN? If so, how do you plan to deal with the divergence of the BP as designed by process designer and BP as delivered by developer?
Are you committed to a BPEL execution engine? If so, do you really need to be concerned with diagramatic representation of BPEL?

…we first have to identify which processes are suitable to be implemented by web services, and then we have to build all these services. …

I think you mean ‘which activities/tasks are suitable’.
Really they do not need to be web services in any but the most general sense of the phrase and they do not need to be built – only have a ‘contract’ defined (say in WSDL). Then process development and service development can proceed in parallel.

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